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question about the treatment of animals
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wphogan
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 Posted: Sat Apr 3rd, 2010 01:46 am
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Hi, I am new to this forum.

I live in  the far north of Australia.

I would like to know if their is a way for remote people to ask Abraham Questions.

I have recently watched a seminar in which Abrham spoke of animals and the planet.

I understand what Abraham was saying, I would like to know what Abraham would say about the human treatment of caged bears. [ yes I would feel better, if this dident happen}

I do not focus on this, however, something in my reality I would like their not to exist., human mistreatment of animals.

after watching the dvd, I am left wondering, as someone that feels their path lies in helping or sometimes healing others, how that relates with allowing others their creation, their gap. their, ? suffering

 

 

any advice please

 

with love William ::TU

David
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 Posted: Sat Apr 3rd, 2010 02:48 am
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I've moved your question to this forum and have renamed the thread so it may be in the appropriate place and be noticed.  Abraham has spoken of animals and their treatment by humans, I am sure.  I don't have a quote handy, but hopefully their will be something for you to read soon.  Hang in there, and welcome to the Forum!  

Fabs222
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 Posted: Sun Apr 4th, 2010 05:47 pm
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Hello William and welcome to the forum

On the last Mexican Cruise, the first person in the hot seat ask a similar question.

I transcribed most of her interaction with Abraham.

I hope you find some answers to your questions, enjoy!

:allgood Fabienne

 
Aber: I would like help in feeling my way into the Vortex relative to the animal kingdom, and in particular when I see animals in situations that feel troublesome to me like feedlots, puppy farms, just you know you see situations that seem as if the animals are suffering…

Abraham: Here is the thing that is really interesting about your question and it’s a fabulous place to begin because it is the subject that when we talk about it, because people like you ask, Jerry & Esther get hate mail; because no one likes what Abraham says about it, if they are outside of the Vortex. Because we won’t empathize with the problem that they have focused. Now the most interesting thing about this is that, if you were in the Vortex, it is exactly what we were talking about, about seeing the world from inside the Vortex or from outside the Vortex. And when you are inside the Vortex, knowing what the Source within you knows, and knowing what the Inner Being of all those animals who are choosing to come forth knows, we can understand how humans outside the vortex, watching a lion kill a deer would say: “Why in the world would Source or God allow that and why would a deer be willing to come forth to that end? Something must be really wrong with the process of creation.”

And we say: “That’s an outside of the Vortex point of view but the deer made the decision to come forth into this physical environment from inside of the Vortex. You’ve got to step back and look at the big picture and there are some things that you have to know before anything that we say to you is going to make any sense to you or soothe you at all. First and most important is that no one comes forth and we are talking about any consciousness that becomes physical anything. No consciousness comes forth into this physical environment without full understanding of what it’s coming into.


Now if you really want to ask an important question, you might say:  So my body is made up of trillions of cells, each one of which is a consciousness. That seems like a pretty crummy life, all crowded in there together in my skin. Do the cells of my body really know Abraham that they were going to be abused in this way?

When that lady lost 150 pounds how many of her cells did she sacrifice? (Laughter from the audience!) I expect quite a few of them croaked during that process and they got pretty hungry before they croaked I am thinking…(Laughter from the audience again!)

So when you understand that consciousness comes forward and the advantage that the animals have is that they don’t stand outside the Vortex like humans do. Your animals are inside the Vortex beings. That’s why you aknowledge that they have what you call instinct or intuition. Your scientist have been noting how remarkable they are. You watch a flock of birds in flight and it’s as if they are operating from one mind and they are.

Aber: And that’s why I get stuck because it’s like if they are inside the Vortex…

Abraham: But you are argueing for your outside the Vortex position. We cannot convince you as you look at your outside the Vortex data and pictures and websites and forums, we cannot ever convince you that what you are looking at is not a reality, it is a reality. The only thing that we can talk to you about is which side of the bounce are you taking. We just got to say to you that the animals coming in know what they are coming into and they have chosen the side of the bounce. In other words, they are not fretting over it, they are not worried about it, they are not in those cages complaining, they are not. They are coping in ways that you find repressing. You don’t like jail or school…

Aber: and they choose it because then they advance to a bigger perspective?

Abraham: They choose it because from their perspective it is something worth choosing. You see the chicken doesn’t later on become a turkey, and later on get to become an ostrich and then later become a human. It’s not like that. It’s not like that at all. There is consciousness, there is this stream of consciousness that joyously participates at all levels and the joy that any consciousness is having is not because it is comparing itself to what other consciousnesses are living. The joy that any consciousness is living in the moment is the joy that it lives by taking the bounce side, the inside the Vortex side of the vibrational wave. Did you get that? It’s the first time we’ve said that so we are going to say it again.

The joy that any consciousness whether it’s a cell, whether it is a one celled amoeba, whether it’s a chicken in a cage, whether it’s a lion running through the jungle, whether it’s a human, the joy that any consciousness feels in any moment is not about it’s relativity to other consciousness. In other words the cat isn’t comparing itself to the dog: “Oh he likes you better than me”. The chicken isn’t comparing itself to the rabbit: “Oh you got to run free longer than I do”. There isn’t any of that. The comparison is not from person to person, or animal to animal, or animal to person. They are not comparing themselves and wanting to move up an evolutional ladder, in the way that humans outside the Vortex, in their craziness, conceive of.


The satisfaction in any moment is the comparison between the wave or the vibrational consciousness of the individual consciousness. In other words, a human whose Source is in the Vortex, who reaches for the vibration that allows alignment has a satisfying moment of well being. The chicken, even the chicken in the cage or the puppy in the whatever, has an Inner Being who is in the Vortex. And those animals are tuning themselves constantly to the vibration of their being and finding satisfaction. That’s why they are willing to come forth; they don’t care where they be in the experience of leading edge time space reality because they are more certain than humans are of their alignment with who they are.

Friends we know some of you will send letters but this is leading edge understanding. In other words you can’t sort it out any other way. Think about it; let’s talk about humans and human suffering and human death. So human suffer more around the idea of death or around the idea of the death of those that they care about than all other subjects put together. And yet you all accept that what you call death is a natural part of what you call life. There is not one of you that believes that you or anyone else is going to come in these physical bodies and remain indefinitely. You all know that there will be what you are calling the physical endind of this physical beingness, you accept that. And we would like to put it out to you: How do you square that with your reason for coming forth at all? In other words, the way humans think of death makes it impossible for them to understand their beingness at all. You’ve criminalized it; you’ve made it an awful thing. Now we know you are not talking about death you are talking about suffering, but you suffer over death.

So when you understand that all consciousness has the opportunity to be in a moment of joy, as that consciousness, one celled amoeba or full blown humans, aligns with the consciousness of Source and that your pain is about not alignment and your joy is about alignment, and your suffering is about not alignment and your exhilaration is about alignment. When you get it that it’s about tuning yourself up, then we think you will stop trying to assume the identity of the animals, which you can’t do. And you are using that bogus ridiculous perspective as your excuse to keep yourself outside the Vortex. So you are suffering over the chicken and the chicken isn’t.

There is so much physicality that wouldn’t even be physicality if it weren’t been called forth for the raising of food. So humans would say: well I would rather not be born at all than be born to be eaten later. And we say: but you are not being raised for foods, not in most cases (laughter!)



We think that, there is far too much suffering over something that you can’t control, over something that is none of your business, because you are choosing a point of view that the Source within you does not choose… If you could manage to disrupt your physical pattern of environment and foods through your worry about those kinds of things, your planet would not be a better place...you would just kill corn and carrots!

Soon we’ll have a conversation: Abraham there are these carrots and do you know that they spend most of their lives with their head buried deep in the dirt and they’re only allowed to see the sunshine just for a moment before someone eats them…

(Laughter)!

::LOL

 

 

 

Last edited on Sun Apr 4th, 2010 05:56 pm by Fabs222

Sparklebright
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 Posted: Sun Apr 4th, 2010 06:07 pm
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That was wonderful Fabs222! Thankyou!::TU::TU::TU

I'm laughing and crying! :kiss:

BarryB
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 Posted: Sun Apr 4th, 2010 08:00 pm
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Fabs222 wrote: When that lady lost 150 pounds how many of her cells did she sacrifice? (Laughter from the audience!) I expect quite a few of them croaked during that process and they got pretty hungry before they croaked I am thinking…(Laughter from the audience again!)

::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL

The satisfaction in any moment is the comparison between the wave or the vibrational consciousness of the individual consciousness. In other words, a human whose Source is in the Vortex, who reaches for the vibration that allows alignment has a satisfying moment of well being. The chicken, even the chicken in the cage or the puppy in the whatever, has an Inner Being who is in the Vortex. And those animals are tuning themselves constantly to the vibration of their being and finding satisfaction. That’s why they are willing to come forth; they don’t care where they be in the experience of leading edge time space reality because they are more certain than humans are of their alignment with who they are.

::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow::wow

Soon we’ll have a conversation: Abraham there are these carrots and do you know that they spend most of their lives with their head buried deep in the dirt and they’re only allowed to see the sunshine just for a moment before someone eats them…


::LOL::LOL


Hello Fabs222,

Thanks so much for this!

Blessings,

Barry

wphogan
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 Posted: Tue Apr 6th, 2010 01:17 am
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Thank you Fabienne for the reply transcript, it does answer a lot of my question.

it also brings forward more questions for me.

and maybe again their just coming from the human perspective, or the other side of the bounce.

my thoughts now, are where does helping, healing and sharing care and compassion, come in respect to allowing another beings [? consciousness choice suffering] be they human or beast?

thank you to every ones contribution, and please excuse my lack of experiance with fourums and threads?

 

with love William ::music

Sparklebright
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 Posted: Tue Apr 6th, 2010 12:06 pm
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wphogan wrote: my thoughts now, are where does helping, healing and sharing care and compassion, come in respect to allowing another beings [? consciousness choice suffering] be they human or beast?


It seems to me that we do that for ourselves too. Which is the way it should be.

We, on the leading edge are taking thought further than it has been  before. In the past it was generally assumed that animals could only be trained through fear. New wonderful ways of interacting with animals have become more popular.

Animals taking part in human therapy is a win win situation for all concerned. The term "Service dogs" speaks only from the human perspective.

I guess what I am getting to is just a reflection of your statement "sharing care and compassion" because on a deep level we know that whatever we put out comes back to us. That we want that positive attention from these beings who have new ways of showing us how to take thought further than ever.

a_muchness
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 Posted: Tue Apr 6th, 2010 07:42 pm
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wphogan wrote: my thoughts now, are where does helping, healing and sharing care and compassion, come in respect to allowing another beings [? consciousness choice suffering] be they human or beast?


I had some questions about this myself, after reading Abraham's take on it. I thought, but isn't it from the asking (of the animals and people) that people have chosen to rescue animals and create more humane conditions for them, isn't that part of things getting better and better and better? Are the animals who are being saved and fed and cared for and/or freed from torture asking, on some level, for relief and being saved/cared for?

It seems logical that the compassion and love people demonstrate when taking inspired action to make things better for animals (or people) is a strong, positive force for change. An allowing, if you will, of positive solutions to flow.

So I'm a little confused as to Abe's perspective that we should just let what we see as 'bad' things happen, when the action being taken to remove animals from damaging situations is often positive, inspired action, coming from a loving place.

::chin:?

serenity2000
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 Posted: Tue Apr 6th, 2010 11:09 pm
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On my way to Abraham, I stumbled upon something that explained that Source/The Creator wanted to experience ALL contrast - wanted & unwanted.  In a nutshell, WE (every iota of consciousness) are a part of Source, which is how WE are all one at the levels above the clumps somewhere above Abraham-like beings.  Source expands by virtue of unwanted contrast because we immediately know what is wanted and put it, not only in our own Vortex, but the Universal Vortex (although they're not separate, technically).

So, whether it's a homeless person living 60 years of misery (in our judgment based on this time-space-reality) or a bear chained by the nose in misery for the whole of his life... Source rejoices at the veritable worlds of desire just these two points of consciousness have desired into BEing.  Their desires are DONE and manifested in the Universal Vortex for the benefit of generations to come. 

With their personal alignment come the magical manifestations; the homeless guy can meet the family which helps him achieve a "better" life (think The Blind Side movie) or can win a lottery or... while the bear can manifest rescue by PETA ninjas or an escape while his keeper forgets to lock him up or....  Without alignment while in Physical, they simply lead the lives that keep the Universal Vortex expanding and then they croak and find immediate alignment.

IF you wish to help an "unfortunate" slice of Source because it brings you JOY and makes your IB sing with alignment - you're on the right path.

IF you wish to help an "unfortunate" slice of Source because it engenders pity or heartbreak for the situation they're in, you're not seeing the situation through the eyes of Source and are actually doing the "unfortunate" a disservice by seeing him in the "what-is".

Of course, we can't get it wrong so it doesn't really matter which way you choose to view the situation because Source expands even more as your desires are added to the Universal Vortex!

Isn't this an absolutely nifty ride???  It makes the Fun House with the funny mirrors positively boring!

a_muchness
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 Posted: Wed Apr 7th, 2010 06:31 pm
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serenity2000 wrote: IF you wish to help an "unfortunate" slice of Source because it brings you JOY and makes your IB sing with alignment - you're on the right path.

 Brilliant points you made serenity2000!

The above quote gets at the essence of what I was saying/asking :)

:beautiful:

littlestar
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 Posted: Wed Apr 7th, 2010 08:34 pm
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I had some questions myself regarding animals, but now i got the answers i wanted. Thank you all.:)

Tai
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 Posted: Wed Apr 7th, 2010 11:17 pm
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William, thanks so much for asking this. This is on my mind as well.
I love animals, and seeing them being mistreated, even when it's fake on a tv-show, makes me cry.

Last edited on Wed Apr 7th, 2010 11:17 pm by Tai

Diggit
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 Posted: Thu Apr 8th, 2010 04:39 am
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People SO don't want "bad" things to be and SO want to "help" and are SO focused on such "terrible things" that they attract them.

What is the result when you focus on something you do not want?
You get what you do not want.

What is the result when you expect behavior you do not want from others?
They do what you do not want them to do.

What is the result when you convince a whole lot of others to focus on the same unwanted thing and expect the same unwanted behavior?
You end up with a huge human population that can't remember who they are, where they came from, why they're here or how things work.

Even so, it doesn't matter. Joy is increased, regardless.



wphogan
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 01:48 am
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::TUIt has beeen a great reminder of who I am, and a great reminder re focus and creation to read all youre posts, I thank you all very much.

 

:beautiful:WIlliam

patricia b
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 02:34 am
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Abraham has said that when you suffer emotionally because of what you see---be it animals or whatever---YOU ARE ADDING TO THE SUFFERING QUOTIENT in the world.

But---

You are also ADDING TO THE ASKING FOR HAPPIER LIVES for all concerned because it is Contrast that has caused 'asking.'

I wish I had the quote on this, I am "sure" I heard it once on a cruise or something, but it may have been about a baby or an animal--and Abraham said something that resonated with me---Something like "You do not know WHAT that Being may have been in another physical life."

I know Abraham does not go into this---They always pooh-pooh our limited understanding of what we call "karma."  However, it is *my* conviction that there is an eternal "balancing" that goes on.  That Consciousnesses "ask" for certain "balancing" experiences from one lifetime to another.

*I* tend to see it that as consciousnesses, we can choose to inhabit the physical bodies of any type of living thing as we have our embodiments in Physical, and therefore we have endless opportunites to "balance Energy."  This is sort of like the Native American and other indigenous groups' concepts of all Lifeforms as our brothers and sisters.

So in a way we can "honor" that bear as a great Teacher who has chosen an Experience.

Now there are teachings that say that certain beings choose extreme conditions just to melt the hearts of certain others that they "made a deal with" before they came into Physical---to choose experiences together that are mutually expanding. 

Therefore that suffering person or animal may have incarnated just so that one Being may see it in passing and elevate their consciousness.

I have never heard Abraham talk about it in this way---yet.  Probably because so many listeners take ideas like this and run with them and try to create some less-subtle kind of dogma out of them. 

This is deep stuff, but simple.

I am VERY tender about animals.  And have been very troubled by "suffering." Mostly because on the surface, it seems to me like they have not "voice" in their experiences with humans.

SOOOOO When I see ANY situation that is troubling, what I do, is get into my Virtual Reality world, and "project" what I would "like" to see happen.  I feel much better, because I know I am "doing" something.

I saw something VERY troubling happen with a young man and his pit bull day before yesterday.  I got out of my car and addressed the situation, and then the best thing I could do to follow up was to put them both in the Violet Flame of Divine Love, which transmutes negativity into Love.

That ALWAYS gives me Relief. 

I have gone outside of the vocabulary that Abraham uses.  Oh, well.

Last edited on Fri Apr 16th, 2010 02:35 am by patricia b

chillinjoan
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 03:46 am
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Do animals and us for that matter, have a choice in whether we want to incarnate again?

Is a rabbit always a rabbit and so forth?

Can my cat "Fish" but the re-incarnate of my late cat "Tree"?  They look and act exactly the same. 

patricia b
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 04:08 am
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chillinjoan wrote: Do animals and us for that matter, have a choice in whether we want to incarnate again?

Is a rabbit always a rabbit and so forth?

Can my cat "Fish" but the re-incarnate of my late cat "Tree"?  They look and act exactly the same. 

It is my understanding that Abe says "Yes" on both counts.  Abraham has said that the animals KNOW that they are coming right back "IN"---They know there is no such thing as what we call 'death.'

jonh21
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 04:14 am
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We(humans animals and everything else) are not a clump of souls, We are a stream of consciousness.
It is an illusion to think that after death you will see yourself as "Angela" or "Agatha" or whatever your name is, you are just having an experience as "Angela" or "Agatha" you are not them.

It is like when you go to the movies, after you watch it, you may talk about the good parts and even remember about it some times if you really like it, but you know you are so much more then those 2 hours of movie you saw.

WE are timeless genderless and formless, we are everything and nothing, we are Source. We are One.

And that's the answer of why we are not afraid to experience negativity, because in the end the only affect it can have is to show what exactly we aren't and highlight what we ARE.
It is like a self boosting system constantly showing us how good it is to be ONE.

Last edited on Fri Apr 16th, 2010 04:16 am by jonh21

Leigh
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 04:39 am
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Hi all,

William's question about animals is a common one for Abraham-Hicks.

I can see that the consciousness in the responses to this question have moved forward.

In the past I have read exchanges which were full of put-downs, and "I'm right" sentiments.  Some people have left the forum, because of the treatment they have recieved regarding this question.

Much gentler responses this time around, and clearer quotes from Abraham.

My thanks to all in this conversation, for striving for enlightenment, and not bashing.

Leigh

chillinjoan
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16th, 2010 02:59 pm
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I am still not clear if we have a choice if we want to come back into live again, animals too, do they have a choice?

Can we take a break for as long as we like before coming back again?

What do we do in non-physical form?  It sounds so boring other than feeling amazingly blissful.  Other mentors say we have jobs and there is a place we reside on, the Other side which looks like Earth only with a mauve sky.........?


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